Fixing Europe’s Issuance Problem: A conversation with Michael Duttlinger (Cashlink) [EN]

00:00:00: Michael Duttlinger: Now we have a fully centralized system. And on the other side, we have a fully decentralized dream, I would say. Um, and now we have something in the middle. We have now a system which is way more decentralized than the, than the traditional system with all the benefits of decentralization. But still, we have centralized components and we still have intermediaries, uh, left.

00:00:22: Michael Duttlinger: We will see less intermediaries. As we have in the traditional capital markets infrastructure, but we will still see intermediaries like Cash Link as a fully rated related entity.

00:00:33: Lidia Kurt: Welcome to Inside Digital Assets, the podcast about the future of capital markets tokenization,

00:00:40: Michael Duttlinger: Digital assets, and the technologies that power them.

00:00:46: Lidia Kurt: Welcome to a new episode of Inside Digital Asset, and we have a very interesting guest today. Welcome, Michael Dolinger from Cashlink.

00:00:54: Michael Duttlinger: Yeah, uh, welcome. I am glad to be here and be part of this, uh, series.

00:00:59: Lidia Kurt: Michael you are CEO and founder of Cashlink, a company that actually already exists over 10 years. Um, can you give us a bit of a short introduction, what you're actually doing and what your story has been so far over the last 10 years?

00:01:12: Michael Duttlinger: Yeah. Um, so yes, I'm, uh, Michael, Michael Dolinger in Oak and co-founder of Cashlink With Cashlink. We've built the biggest, um, uh, or the, the, the largest infrastructure for the issuance of token based securities. Fully regulated, um, in Europe and we are mainly serving financial institutions so that they can issue, uh, token based securities natively on chain, um, in a fully regulated way.

00:01:39: Michael Duttlinger: Um, we are regulated so far in Germany as though we're the first one to obtain a so-called crypto securities, uh, registrar license, and we also have a crypto custody license. And our clients range from, uh, KFW, the, or the biggest or one of the biggest issuers in Germany, uh, to Deutsche Bank, the set bank, and many others.

00:01:59: Michael Duttlinger: And, uh, yeah, we have, uh, had a, a great journey, um, because now we are. We are really focusing on financial institutions, um, that they can switch from the traditional capital market infrastructure to a new token based, more efficient capital markets infrastructure. But as you just said, the company's 10 years old.

00:02:19: Michael Duttlinger: So it has been a very interesting journey to the point where we are now. And, uh, yeah. Uh, we kicked off actually 2016, um, as a payment company. So not in the blockchain space at all. We were building a, a payments infrastructure, uh, to easily send links via WhatsApp. And after two years, uh, when we saw that, um, especially back then, it was the ICO hype, um, it came up and people were really interesting in.

00:02:48: Michael Duttlinger: I would say the, the, the in an easy transfer and investment of any product. Um, and then also later, adding all the defi components we saw. Okay, how can we use this technology to make traditional assets, securities, um, real world assets the same way, efficient, easily investible, easily tradable as, uh, these ICOs.

00:03:11: Michael Duttlinger: Um, and then we completely pivoted to, uh, yeah, tokenization infrastructure back then. Um, we were the first one to issue a security token in Germany. We worked very closely with the German regulator, um, and then later also with the German government as we've been part of the official advisory report, um, of the German government.

00:03:31: Michael Duttlinger: Um, and then, yeah, we, we were basically at the beginning, the focus was primarily on. Alternative assets. So, uh, we did an infrastructure and our clients, uh, tokenized real estates, solar parks, wind farms, real estate, um, collectibles, uh, like Alzheimer's and, and art paintings. Um, and, uh, it was mainly in the form of crowd investing.

00:03:57: Michael Duttlinger: So on the one side it was retail. Retailers buying these, um, alternative assets and this is basically still working out, uh, pretty well. Um, and it's, uh, I think it's a good but niche use case for tokenization, um, with great benefits because it's easier investible and easier transferrable. And of course more efficient.

00:04:16: Michael Duttlinger: Um, but then we realized, especially in Germany, uh, there were, there, there, there came the new electronic securities law, which is still from my perspective, one of the most advanced, uh, blockchain laws, laws worldwide and Germany has been the country. Uh, which, uh, had had, what was the first biggest country in the world that introduced these blockchain laws, um, at scale?

00:04:40: Michael Duttlinger: Uh, and this is something Germans can be very proud of for the German government, uh, uh, which is sometimes, uh, Germans don't, uh, make it so easy for themselves to be proud of something. But this is something I think we can be very proud of because this, this blockchain laws were really the door opener.

00:04:57: Michael Duttlinger: For all the financial institutions to say, oh, we moved out of a gray zone. We moved from a gray zone in a completely wide regulatory zone, and now we don't have to go to the monopoly center, security depository, CSDs. Um, we can also have another way. Of issuing our securities in a fully electronic or decentralized way on the blockchain, which saves them a lot of costs in the short term and makes them ready for the future in the mid and long term.

00:05:25: Michael Duttlinger: Um, and that's why we saw then, uh, clients, like our clients like gave w issuing nine digit bonds. Uh, just two weeks, or last week or two weeks ago, we announced our, the set bank, uh, issuance with where we put a lot of other, um, components on chain. Um, we saw. Uh, yeah, a couple of, uh, other banks doing POCs now and now I think we are really in a transition phase that all these institutions who have done POCs and who have really experimented with, are now moving to a scalable infrastructure that really will see more and more issuance.

00:06:03: Michael Duttlinger: Trans, uh, transforming from the traditional capital market infrastructure to an electronic, decentralized capital market infrastructure. And that's why I think it's really interesting to be now at this inflection point as the, the market, uh, leading, um, infrastructure and, uh, yeah. So, uh, a lot has happened in 10 years and a lot more will happen in the next 10 years.

00:06:24: Michael Duttlinger: And

00:06:25: Lidia Kurt: thank you very much. I think a lot of interesting points we really need to touch upon a bit more deeper, so the projects you're mentioning and where the journey is going in the future. But let me first also for the listeners deep dive a bit onto into this German law topic. Um, so because this registrar functionality.

00:06:41: Lidia Kurt: Or, uh, in, in full, this crypto securities registrar functionality is something that is very special in Germany. Um, when that has first been announced, my initial reaction was, oh my God, now you have a blockchain that actually could do something, but what, what are, what are you doing? You implement a new institution that actually is again, an intermediary for what the blockchain could very well do.

00:07:02: Lidia Kurt: Now, I have re revised my opinion on that a bit over the last years. Because what we see in Germany also compared to other, uh, jurisdictions actually, that you have all those different providers providing a service that doesn't exist in all jurisdictions. Um, but that we can deep dive a bit into that. Can you give us a bit of an overview what this registrar is?

00:07:22: Lidia Kurt: What is his function, what is he doing, um, and how does he collaborate or interact with the blockchain?

00:07:29: Michael Duttlinger: Yeah, so, um, I think. At the beginning of tokenization, like you said, the whole, like it was a crypto ecosystem, had the dream of a fully decentralized, uh, capital market infrastructure. Basically. This was also the direction after 2008 was coming up Bitcoin when nobody has any control, uh, uh, over your asset.

00:07:51: Michael Duttlinger: Basically, I think when, when the general government thought about how can we implement this new law. And I think it's a very well assigned law and good designed law because if you look at the specifics, um, right now we have a fully centralized system. And on the other side we have a fully decentralized dream.

00:08:09: Michael Duttlinger: I would say it. Um, and now we have something in the middle. So we have a way, we have now a system which is way more decentralized than the, than the traditional system with all the benefits of decentralization. But still we have centralized. Components and we still have intermediaries, uh, left. We will see less intermediaries as we have in the traditional capital markets infrastructure, but we will still see intermediaries like Cash Link as a fully regulat related entity.

00:08:37: Michael Duttlinger: And this is spec specifically important, um, as being the registrar because at some point. When we look at Bitcoin, no one has control over Bitcoin, so no one can take away your Bitcoins. Um, and for a capital market infrastructure, that's something as a society, which you don't want to have, um, because you want to imply sanctions.

00:08:58: Michael Duttlinger: Um, you want to have control over the assets. You want to seize assets. Um, you want to have KYC and a ML restrictions, obviously. Um, and that's for a real capital markets infrastructure. You want to have. Some intermediary, which is fully regulated, which has, which can have control over the assets. And in this case, in the traditional world, it's the CSDs and the custodian banks.

00:09:24: Michael Duttlinger: Um, and in the new world, um, it's the registrar at the lowest layer level. So the registrar is responsible for doing the smart contracts. And the entity who is doing the smart contract is basically controlling the assets. And we saw this also, uh, in the crypto world where, for example, I think tether freezed assets, where then people, the crypto ecosystem realized, oh, this.

00:09:51: Michael Duttlinger: That we still have an intermediary who can control my tether. And here it's the same. So we have the intermediary, uh, who can control the assets because we at caching are controlling the smart contract. And this is also really important because. Like I said, if you want to imply sanctions, for example, you need to have access over the registry.

00:10:12: Michael Duttlinger: If there are errors on the registry, you need to have, you need to re reward, be able to re reward, um, functions or, or transfers and so on. So you want to have someone who has the control, and then if you think of the next step, okay. If there is someone who has the control over the, the registry, the talk, the smart contract, this entity should be highly regulated.

00:10:34: Michael Duttlinger: Um, because if this entity is not regulated, there's someone who has, has control over the assets who is not regulated, um, then the market will not trust this infrastructure. And I think this is the biggest difference to all the more unregulated security tokens. These are tech companies. Who, nobody knows which compliance they're enforcing, in which way they are compliant.

00:10:59: Michael Duttlinger: But they're com, they're controlling the life cycle of securities in an unregulated way. This is nothing what you want as a a big financial institution and as the whole capital market. And now as being the registrar, the Germany says, okay, the one who is doing the registry, who's. It has to be regulated under the German regulator, Baffin, who has to fulfill many requirements and then as the market they can trust, okay, that we have this entity who is regulated, controlled by Baffin, um, uh, that we can trust them with the issuance of our securities.

00:11:35: Michael Duttlinger: So that's why I think it's well designed, uh, uh, law, it makes. Total sense. Um, if you look at how traditional capital markets work, it's basically adapting the mechanisms of the traditional capital markets while still using the benefits of decentralization. Um, and, uh, I think the, if you look at now other countries who have adapted this function, uh, the only thing they.

00:11:58: Michael Duttlinger: Differently is that it's maybe not a new license, as in Germany, it's a new license. In some countries it's an add-on license to existing licenses, but basically covers the same mechanism that you want to have a, a, a, a compliant implementation of, uh, token based securities.

00:12:18: Lidia Kurt: And I think what is very important on that is also when you, for example, take the comparison also to Switzerland where you don't have such a, in such a regulated function, you are then also usually missing someone who's actually doing that.

00:12:29: Lidia Kurt: So yeah, in effect how it then works, the issuer is responsible for all the things you have been saying because obviously sanctions, for example, still need to be implemented, A-M-L-K-Y-C. So all the, the compliance topics around knowing your customer, they still need to be implemented. So they will then always be implemented.

00:12:46: Lidia Kurt: By the issuer, so you don't have some sort of a coordinated. Intermediary that actually does it for all the issuers or, or let's say for a maturity of the issuers. Um, so that makes it more difficult in all jurisdictions where you don't have this function. So I think it's very interesting to also look from a European perspective on that topic.

00:13:03: Lidia Kurt: Now, what is a bit, I would say, I mean, it's good to have that in Germany, um, but what the pity is that you don't have it. In all the content that you don't have it European wide, right. So how, how are you, are you handling that? I mean, Europe first market is Germany, but I believe you're also looking outside Germany.

00:13:19: Lidia Kurt: Um, so how, how are the steps of actually bringing what you're doing in Germany also, uh, to markets outside Germany?

00:13:26: Michael Duttlinger: Yeah, so, um, I think what is still. And, and that favorite situation in Europe is that, um, on the issuance side, it's still not harmonized on EU level. Um, and we see this with the additional CSDs.

00:13:41: Michael Duttlinger: We have a CSD in every, uh, basically with one CSD in every European country basically. Um, and it's not harmonized. So distribution is harmonized. If you have a prospectus, you can of course distribute it via Europe, but it's still at one registrar. There's not one European registrar. So we still have this un harmonized regimes in Europe, and they, it's still holding true, again, in the, in a, a token based capital market infrastructure.

00:14:10: Michael Duttlinger: So the way I look at it's, we have basically three layers. And the, the lowest layer is the issuance registry layer. Then we have the settlement system layer, and then we have the trading layer. And ob obviously ion, for example, is, uh, especially now active in the, in the settlement system. And, uh, uh, a trading layer where we have a harmonized DLT pilot regime, which is very good on the EU level that we have harmonized two of the three, uh, uh, layers.

00:14:39: Michael Duttlinger: The lowest layer, the issuance layer is still a, a, a, a national, uh, one. What is important is that the registry layer is in Germany or Luxembourg or any other European country, um, is compatible with the DLT pilot regime layer. Um, and it can, the, the issuance can be distributed European wide. And if we look at a traditional market system, it's basically the same.

00:15:05: Michael Duttlinger: So if you look at a, a big European bank, the big European bank is not issuing in any, in, in every 27 countries. They have maybe three, maybe four major issuance countries. Usually for funds, it's, it's, it's a lot of Luxembourg. So retail structure products are a, a lot, a lot in Germany. Bonds are also Germany, maybe France, Italy, and so on.

00:15:29: Michael Duttlinger: Um, but you have some major issuance countries and then they issue in these countries and then it distributed European vibe. And it's the same here as an issuer. You choose your country where you is, where you issue, and the re the factors why you choose your issuance country is it's about many factors.

00:15:46: Michael Duttlinger: It's tax, the way the regulator, uh, uh, uh, handles, prospectus and so on. Um, and, uh, many other reasons. Um, uh, or compartment structure in Luxembourg, uh, for example. Um, and then. You have to just comply to the national blockchain laws in Germany, it's a registrar and luxembourg's, the Blockchain Act and so on.

00:16:06: Michael Duttlinger: Um, and then you issue according to national law. You work with a DOT, uh, uh, pilot regime, like Torian, and you distribute it with European perspectives, European wide. So that's why basically this, that's not change to the current system. What I don't believe is, and what people in industry I think are getting wrong, is that the issuers, which will, will change the issuance, issuance hub due to blockchain loss.

00:16:32: Michael Duttlinger: And I think this will not happen. So we have this, our clients just told me this couple, one of our clients told me this two weeks ago, that they get approached a lot by so many tokenization providers that say, oh, we can do it through Spanish law now, or to some small countries, law, the Liechtenstein Law and so on.

00:16:48: Michael Duttlinger: And they're like, yeah, but our main hub is Luxembourg for our funds. We will not switch to. One of these countries only because of the blockchain laws. So we will stay in Luxembourg or in the respective jurisdictions we are now in. And for us it's only okay, we have to work with someone who has the registrar license in this respective, uh, European country.

00:17:08: Michael Duttlinger: So that's why. It's basically the same as in the traditional world, there will be not no changes due to blockchain laws. Mm-hmm. And then for Cashlink, now specifically we can do this for Germany, we are also planning to expand to other European countries that we can also have the registrar license in the other respective, um, uh, uh, issuance countries.

00:17:28: Michael Duttlinger: And then they can be distributed and settled, uh, European wide.

00:17:33: Lidia Kurt: What will be the most important countries for yourself and do you believe in the European market for issuance? Besides Germany. Yeah, likely Luxembourg.

00:17:42: Michael Duttlinger: Yeah. So if you look at the numbers, um, of where the issuances are, uh, taking place right now, uh, Germany obviously, uh, is one of the biggest issuance hub in, in Europe.

00:17:52: Michael Duttlinger: Luxembourg is, uh, the biggest hub, especially for funds. Um, Ireland land is also very strong if you look at how far they have advanced with blockchain loss. Germany is far advanced. Luxembourg is also far advanced. Ireland is more behind, I would say. That's why I would, so naturally I think we will see, and it's also interesting for us, it's, it's moving into Luxembourg, uh, law.

00:18:15: Michael Duttlinger: Um, and then, uh, the next, uh, other countries where we also see more issuance is probably France, um, where you also see more issuances. But then I think we have a huge long tail, uh, in European countries. So you have a couple of. Countries where account for more than 50% of all the issuances and issuance volumes, depending which metric you're looking at.

00:18:36: Michael Duttlinger: Mm-hmm. Number of issuance or OSU volume. Um, and then you have a lot long, the other European countries are more long tail, uh, where you only have a they con, which contribute only. In a very small way to the, the big number of the issuance, uh, market.

00:18:51: Lidia Kurt: Okay, great. No, that makes a lot of sense. Uh, thanks for El elaborating on that.

00:18:55: Lidia Kurt: Now, when we deep dive a bit on the transactions that you did, and you were mentioning a couple of them were pilot transactions, but a couple of them also real transactions and um, also in high digit numbers. So can you, um, touch upon bit the, the most important transactions that you did, um, over the last few years?

00:19:13: Michael Duttlinger: Yeah, no, happy to do so. Um, I think what we see is how financial institutions approach this space. It's basically always the same process, which we also offer at a kind of standardized service. Um, and they usually start with education. Um, and then they, they, they do it by themselves. Um, they talk to us, they talk to you like Torian, uh, or they hire.

00:19:35: Michael Duttlinger: Uh, blockchain consultants see companies, so they start with the education part. After this, they realize when, um, okay, the next step, this should be, uh, some POC. Um, so Bank of Mesler, uh, I, I, I like, like to to, to quote them a lot, uh, because they said, uh, on stage one time, uh, you lo you don't learn swimming by reading books.

00:19:57: Michael Duttlinger: Um, and that's why they then usually decide, okay, we have to do an issuance. 'cause only if you do a real issuance, we can really have the learn internal learning effects. What does it mean for compliance? What does it mean for the outsourcing? What does it mean for, um, NPP processes and so on? Um, and you really get not only the innovation unit on board, you get all the other units on board, which.

00:20:20: Michael Duttlinger: Have nothing to do with innovation, which are pure compliance, for example, but which is very important also regarding change management to get on board. What we also realize with the issuances is that, that we had to realize this in, in one of the projects, don't to do too much at once because it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's an intense change management process because you're switching from a.

00:20:44: Michael Duttlinger: C, SD based, traditional based, uh, issuance to a blockchain based issuance. And then if you already add many other, uh, changes on top, which you could do with token based securities, it's just too much for the organization. So that's why the first POC is usually just a plain vanilla. Issuance. So nothing special.

00:21:04: Michael Duttlinger: So we just do everything we do in right now. We just change one thing. We don't register with this, with the CSD, we register. We register the issuance with cash link on a blockchain. And then, for example, it was the bank house Metler. We did the first fund in Germany. We together with Union investment, um, then we did with KFW, we did um.

00:21:30: Michael Duttlinger: Uh, 100 million Bond, uh, which had a duration, I think of, of one or two years, which then got bought by the set bank and Deutsche Bank and also union investments or by other, I would say friends and family financial institutions. Um, so what we are also seeing is that. The institutions, uh, in the POCs are also within the POCs, moving from small issuances and, and very short durations to higher volume issuance and longer durations.

00:21:59: Michael Duttlinger: So I would say this also the next, the next evolution of the POC stage. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, we did with an, uh, and a W Bank, um, um, a nine digit issuance. We'll do another nine digit issuance, um, in the, the next, uh, couple of months. And this will be the biggest one we are doing so far. Um, so there we'll also see, again, increase in volume and volume.

00:22:22: Michael Duttlinger: What also then after we did this POCs, uh, happened the next experimentation phase, um, was done the ECB trials. Um, so in the first stage it was usually free of payment and fiat payment, uh, free of payment, but it also free of payment so we don't have it real delivery versus payment process. And then there came the ECB trials where then caching participated and then we could do a target two transaction in this experimentation phase of the European Central Bank and Punes Bank, which we also do with KFW and, and, and uh, uh, and VE bank from also.

00:22:56: Michael Duttlinger: But then we could use the Target two system to, to, to do delivery versus payment with European Central Bank, kind of a wholesale CBDC solution. Um, and, uh, I think this was also very valuable for all the participants to gain a lot of Inside and, and, and, uh. Um, experiences and now especially like last, uh, uh, uh, uh, the last issuance we did with the set bank was even the next step further where we saw, okay, um, can we put more on chain?

00:23:27: Michael Duttlinger: Can we put more of the lifecycle, like the, um, um, creation of the on chain and more data on chain and more oracles on chain. So this was the, the last evolution, I would say, of the POCs. And besides all these POCs and evolutions, um, we have, I would say parallel track where other institutions are already implementing a fully scalable solution, um, and a fully scalable solution.

00:23:52: Michael Duttlinger: I think we will firstly see with, um, structured products, especially retail structured products, so leveraged products because here we have a very, I would say, siloed value chain. Because usually what's also a criticism about this new capital market infrastructure is, uh, that it's not, that not all interconnected on inter interability is missing.

00:24:15: Michael Duttlinger: And I think that's true these arguments, but what's now happening is that we see siloed ecosystems going fully on chain, uh, and using token base securities. And one of them will be. Uh, structured products because you will have a neo broker distributing these structured products. You will have a, uh, an issuer issuing them.

00:24:35: Michael Duttlinger: You will have a registrar, uh, like cash link doing the registry, uh, of the security. You will have a, uh, a settlement system like ion in between. Then you have the full value chain on chain, which works perfectly. Um, and you don't need this big interoperability with the rest of the market. And we will see this, uh, very soon in production with real retailers buying these products.

00:25:01: Michael Duttlinger: And this actually what I'm most looking forward to when this goes live.

00:25:04: Lidia Kurt: I also believe now we are in a, in a phase where we are really entering scaling mode. Um. It's not a piloting phase anymore, it's really going into scaling mode. Um, but I think you described it very well how this transition actually happened.

00:25:17: Lidia Kurt: Um, is there anything else, when you look into the future bit, what makes you, um, most, let's say, excited, uh, for the industry? Um, like how do you look into the future?

00:25:26: Michael Duttlinger: Yeah, so I think what's really exciting for me is that we will have now these inflection points. Um, um, and I look at our pipeline and our, uh, uh, uh, and, and the, the projects we are, we are, uh, facing now.

00:25:40: Michael Duttlinger: There will be, there will be, the scale will increase intensively, and this will have ripple effects on the others because the first ones we're implementing have will have. Um, uh, uh, com competitive advantages to their customers because the neo brokers can offer products they could not offer before. Neo brokers will offer cheaper products, which then, uh, will makes customer acquisition easier.

00:26:04: Michael Duttlinger: So that's why we will see then other neo brokers seeing this. Also wanting to grab this competitive advantage and not being outcompeted by their competitors. Um, so I think this ripple effects, I'm really looking forward to these scalable use cases. Uh, uh, I'm looking forward to. Um, and, uh, I also see if you look at the United, the United States, the momentum in the us which is also due to the regulation there.

00:26:32: Michael Duttlinger: It's now emerging, it's immense. Um, and this will also swap to Europe. This will also increase the competition in Europe, um, because, um, the, um, the United States, they will move forward to tokenizing wallies with a lot of power, a lot of, uh, will a lot of money and this will have a, a positive effect on Europe and it will just accelerate things also in Europe.

00:26:58: Michael Duttlinger: Obviously we need to still talking about regulation. There's still a lot to do, um, on the regulation side and we cannot stop the regulation here. We have to advance the regulation. Nevertheless, I'm very positive and confident that, uh, the next year, one to five years will be real transition, scalable.

00:27:17: Michael Duttlinger: Period for all of us.

00:27:18: Lidia Kurt: Um, and if you look, maybe as a last question, if you look like really far ahead, maybe like five, 10 years ahead, do we believe you are gonna live in a system very fully moved into an infrastructure that is going outside the CSTs? Or do you still see certain like hybrid models or certain asset class that still, still fully stay in the old world?

00:27:39: Michael Duttlinger: So obviously if I could wish I would have the future, I would have, uh, I would love to have a full transition from away from the CSDs. Um, but being more realistic, I think for a very long time we will see, uh, hybrid models. Also the CSDs will have their tokenization initiatives and projects, um, and will maybe move even internally to tokenized ways, but still being a CSD trying to protect its own business model.

00:28:07: Michael Duttlinger: But always like still, but on the other side, always now, now using, and also now using this new technology. Um, and uh, yeah, we will see a very long time period, even five to 10 years or even more, we will see hybrid models. Um, and, uh, uh, I think we will see more, uh, financial institutions internalizing the CST function.

00:28:31: Michael Duttlinger: Um, especially if you have your own target group, your own clients, you're, you're the issuer by yourself. You're doing the market making by yourselves. Why would you not internalize the, uh, the, the, the part of the value train f the CS, D? So I think we will see this more. Um, but we still will need, we'll see, have the CSD model for a very long time.

00:28:50: Michael Duttlinger: In parallel.

00:28:51: Lidia Kurt: Um, it's also where we, uh, at Tuon are, are likely heading to, right? Um, having, uh, more of a settlement infrastructure that orchestrate between, uh, different wallets at the bank. So that very much goes hand in hand. Um, yeah, really liked, um, the conversation we had today. Uh, Michael. So a great pleasure to have you, uh, had in this podcast.

00:29:10: Lidia Kurt: I'm very much looking forward to, uh, what's ahead of us in the industry. Thank you for being here.

00:29:14: Michael Duttlinger: Yeah, thanks a lot also for inviting me.

00:29:17: Lidia Kurt: This was Inside Digital Assets, a Joint Project by Bigs Digital Anion. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our podcast and feel free to share with others.